So, every time something else goes down… I gather my family to: 1. explain where we contributed to the problem and how we can do differently next time… and to ask for Gods mercy and grace. 2. to explain that we are not fighting against people, but the spirits motivating their actions… and to pray for the people who have wronged us.

This is not always easy… it’s not EVER easy. But it is the only way to create a SECOND generation PASTOR. Even though my kids are not YET in ministry, they have the right HEART about these matters… they are not bitter… and they seem to care about this lost world (and the lost church) in a pretty epic way! They know that mom and dad are not perfect… they see us pray and ask for Gods forgiveness when we are wrong… they see trying with all our hearts to love our enemies and bless the people who curse us… and pray for those who despitefully mistreat us!

Thanks again Pastor Chris!!

Great post. This needs to be shouted from the housetops. I’m a second geneneration pastor and have a huge heart for pastors and church leaders. I hate to see pastors giving up on their calling because the sheep have made their job so burdensome. I think you nailed down the one major problem which is rebellion. I think there is also another major problem which is a general sense of fear and lack of courage on the part of pastors. Leadership requires courage. If you fear the people you can’t lead them. Pastors need to stop living in fear of deacons and Sunday School teachers and choir members, etc). I don’t pretend to think I know everything (or hardly anything) about ministry but I have learned that if you don’t exhibit courage you’ll get eaten alive. We have to remember that God called us and delegated authority to us to lead. So LEAD! If we don’t lead someone will and that will probably be the person that shouldn’t be leading. For pastors struggling with courage they should read the Apostolic Constitutions which are ancient documents describing the ministry of early church pastors. Many people would be shocked at the authority that the early church pastors wielded. I guess the bottom line is that we have two major issues affecting the church: the rebellion of sheep against spiritual authority and the lack of courage among many pastors to confront the rebellion. Anywho, that’s the way I see it.

You challenged me to pray about a few of the things you brought up… and I’m already doing that. Just like you, I desire to see the Christian church walking in the character of Jesus… and dedicated to the great commission. I want reform in the American church, just as you do. I feel as if the macro problem lies with the rebellious nature of this culture and how that is played out in the Church… and you feel as if the marco problem lies with the failures of the modern preacher.

Whereas I agree with you about the need for reform in the pulpit:
* You feel the importance of pointing out the sins of leaders as a warning to others…
* I feel like the church should support and encourage their leaders and help to carry their burdens so that the leaders can be healed from abuse and burnout… then leaders will be able to see more clearly and minister far more effectively.

Undoubtedly, there is a need for reform in every sector of the modern church… and even though I present some of macro issues here on this blog site from time to time… I always try to ENCOURAGE what is good about us… and BUILD on that, rather than to point out our flaws all day long.

There are still many good churches in America… the church, even at our worse is still the light of the world. Even though we only flicker at times… the ancient embers still glow underneath the cold dark ashes of yesterdays awakenings.

So let us fan the FLAME… let us breathe life and nourishment to those areas of Gods church where fruit is growing… and remember that our FATHER is the gardener and He will prune HIS vine. Let us bend down and pick up those who are wavering and struggling in their faith and character… let us heal them with our mercy and restore them with our love.

Excellent way to close this discussion Esslythe! Your story is amazing… God is going to BLESS you so much in the future for standing with your pastor. I am praying for your Pastor… that God would restore his home and heal his broken heart. I pray for your church, that you continue to be a great force of influence throughout Indonesia! By the way, I love your writing style… enjoy reading EVERYTHING you post!

To everyone else… AMAZING discussion! I loved EVERY one of your comments! Melanie, Nick the Geek, Michelle, Dave, Connie, Rick… thanks for being here!

God bless you all with a super day!

Meanwhile, David was there .. God anointed him as KING even though he was not yet a KING, and he knew somehow that many times SAUL tried to chase him and plan to kill him. David knew .. and not just that, DAVID also HAD A CHANCE to kill Saul but HE DID NOT DO THAT.

We can have a BAD leader, the unhealthy pastor, or any condition (you name it), but WE CAN CHOOSE to be what kind of servant and what kind of pastor. Sadly, many churches today are GOOD on pointing and judging SINNER including minister YET they’re BAD in serving. All we need today ere people who are not just watching, but TOGETHER running and rising up for the generation to come. Im afraid that we actually the SAUL. we were starting GOOD, and im afraid that THE PRESENCE OF GOD left me. Im afraid, maybe today GOD is preparing a new DAVID in this generation .. in a secret place in a secret time, people that we never expected or a lot younger than us .. but God anointed him with a KING anointing. Lets check on ourselves today .. as we reading ps Chuck’s blog

My senior pastor is a good man, he is MAN of GOD. in 2005, his wife left him with a guy in a church. 2005 our church was like HIT by a TSUNAMI .. lots of member were out, i saw leaders were quitting and i saw them become a CRAZY JUDGE … and i was crying a lot and i was about to QUIT either .. but GOD told me to stay … God told me to watch and learn … and im glad i did. in 2005 we only a small church. My senior pastor need time to heal. By that time, i can easily judge him because man is the head of the family, like other did. i can easily joining the DEMO to make him quit from his pastoral, but i didnt do it. I remembered DAVID, and i listened to God. My senior pastor has covered me time to time since 1998, and i knew that time that its time for me to cover him in the day of battle. Of course i was not alone; i was the girl alone actually. Others are 4 guy. That year was a DARKNESS ages for our church; we received so many phone calls; youths were out from church because of the restriction form their parents, my pastor’s schedule was being cancelled here and there .. and we were standing together. We did not judge. by 2007 .. God led us to REFOCUS; God renew everything .. my pastor are totally heal (of course leaving him a living scratch) but today he is a very humble man, he still wearing his wedding ring ..

Lots of story about people that left a church on 2005; they’re wander from one church to another church and sadly they’re having lots of life problem. i tell you what happen to 4 guy and 1 girl who stand back there covering the pastor … one guy just 2 years older than me are in Boston pastoring Indonesian church there since 2007, another guy is in Sydney helping Sydney Harvest Church since 2008 and have a good record and a successful father,husband,and businessman. there’s only 2 guy left; they’re still here , one of them is pastoring the young adult professional of 300 people, the last guy is a YOUTH FREAK; he pastoring 800 youth today .. with me assisting him.

2004 we only 500 people, 2005-2006 we only have 200 something, 2009 we grow into 1500 and this december we’re going to HIT 2000, by 2010 we will have 4 services (including children service; Creative Kids) and a Saturday nite service.

I breath GRACE, i breath Love each time i remembered those darkness year.
and i thank GOD i was doing rite; specially with the attitude of heart. Like DAVID; a man after his own heart.

As i read this blog; i pray for America that GOD will rise up many DAVID who will turn society to the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. i pray that the spirit of wisdom and revelation would fall upon America and i pray for you Ps Chuck, i love you and your church .. i breath “healthy and PURE” when i heard about your name and your church. i feel “FRIEND, FAMILY, FUTURE” for you and your church. i love to be there .. really. Hope to see you SOMEDAY. i believe we will ..

God bless you more

Now that you have preached I Corinthians 5, go back and read the end of the story: II Corinthians 2:5-11.

God also explicitely states in Romans:

“1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?” (Romans 2::1-4)

It is God’s KINDNESS, not our criticisms, that lead people to repentance.

I was going to post this earlier, in response to what Dave said, but I think it fits better now.

There was a church where I went to college, and their beliefs were… mostly well-founded, some a little off. I loved these people, though I didn’t go to their church. Some of the members of this church hurt my feelings badly, by saying that I was out of line with what God wanted me to do. Those people said those things, without really knowing me. Was I perfect at the time? Hardly! But they had no right to judge me, especially when they didn’t know me. And they judged many others as well.

One Wednesday night, I was asked to come to a Bible study at this church for college kids, and I went, though I didn’t know what I was going to hear. The leader of the Bible study was a man that I knew, and I knew that he was a humble Christian. Still, as he began to share, I felt that some of the points he shared were serioulsy wrong.

Now, I could have left that place, and judged it as “in error” and sinful and turned up my nose and left, never to return. But instead, I prayed and asked God what I should do. Well, God told me to do something that I did NOT want to do: speak out against what was being shared, that was wrong. I was terrified. I did not want to judge these people, to their face, or behind their backs.

But this man could tell I was concerend, so he asked what my thoughts were. Well…. scared as I was, I got on the floor, on my knees. It was the only position I felt I could take. And then… I opened my mouth, and began to share. As I shared, I cried, mostly out of fear of how I was being received, but also because I didn’t want to hurt people that honestly believed they were right. When I got finished, I noticed that others in the group were crying. When the leader asked the others why they were crying, they said (almost in unison): “she’s right.”

I was overwhelmed, and also greatly relieved. It wasn’t that I was some great orator, or that I had some great charismatic power, but that God moved through a humble servant. In our weakness is His strength, amen?

We don’t know the effect of our prayers. We will never know how much they effect other people’s lives. But this one thing I do know: our judgment and our criticism of others hinders our prayers. We can’t say that we love God when we hate a brother or sister in the Lord. So how can we pray a loving prayer to a loving God, when we don’t love the ones we are praying for?

I don’t have great wisdom, and I realize that anything I say could be wrong, so take this for what it’s worth. Any Christian can argue scripture all day long, and in the end where will we be? But the real power of God comes through His great love for us, and we are examples of that love when we will sacrifice our own lives and our own time, to pray for those that lead, so that we can lead quiet and peaceful lives.

May God give more of us a Barnabas spirit…

I still believe it is very dangerous to CAST JUDGMENT and warn the whole world to STAY AWAY from a person who is evangelizing the world to Jesus Christ… men who are teaching lost people to put faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. There are better things for us to do that sit around listing to snippets that can so EASILY be taken out of context… or to snippets that can be captured from any one of us in moments of ignorance.

The men you reference in your blogs have a very long history of preaching the Gospel according to Jesus Christ. And even though I disagree with them on various issues… I choose to STAND with them and FIGHT FOR THEM to overcome whatever deception is trying to settle in to their hearts.

And I hope to God that if I should someday find myself in their shoes… with all the pressures of leading a worldwide ministry of that magnitude… that God will raise up people like ME to encourage me and stand with me and love me back to HEALTH if I should ever stumble or fall.

I’m PLANTING mercy Puritan lad… because MERCY is what Jesus came to give humanity… and because I’m sure I will need it again.

James 2:12-13 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Thanks for sharpening my faith today… I wish you all a super duper night!

The world is not afraid to stand before a holy God… but they are petrified at being thrown at the feet of an arrogant church.

What I mean by this statement is that I do not feel that God has appointed the church as administrators of his JUDGEMENT… but as propagators of his MERCY.

I have seen some of what you are talking about with some of the ministers you are referencing above. You are right in saying that we have to confront those biblical errors with truth… I just dont see God wanting us to tear apart a minister who may be confused and searching for answers.

If we present truth to the people we are personally responsible for and to… and we PRAY like crazy for the leaders you’re referencing… maybe God will be able to SPEAK to them and turn their hearts.

He has done it for me so many times before! And if I had a bunch of judgmental Christians bashing me to hell during those times… I may not have been able to find Gods voice and Gods grace.